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29 Jul 2022 01:05:26
What makes a good owner?
If Fosun are a good owner or not is an issue that has been the subject of a plethora of posts on here with numerous and highly diverse views. On other sites, the Forum for example, the view is much clearer - they aren't. They ran a poll on the management of the club and the vote was overwhelming - sorry Mr Shi.
But is it that simple - what is the role of the owner?
For me the owner in reality only has 2 key roles. Firstly, have a good management team and secondly give them the tools/cash to do the job
I believe it is fairly irrefutable that pre-Seville Fosun were the best owners. (With all respect to Sir Jack, who gave more than any owner could have been expected to), the club has had since the late 60s/early 70s!
Nuno, Thelwell and Dalrymple with modest but sufficient - circa £120m over 4 years - support/cash from Fosun took us from a Mid table championship side to an FA Cup semi, a Europa ¼ and two 7th place finishes.
Post Seville however - presumably through no "fault" of their own, Chinese Government or pressing needs for cash elsewhere due to economic issues - Fosun have failed to provide any financial support whatsoever.
This is obviously a far from satisfactory situation and may well be unique amongst owners in the Prem - Ashley for all his failings injected more per annum at Newcastle than Fosun did even pre-Seville!
But more damagingly they lost/replaced the highly successful management team with Shi, Sellars and Lage.
Even allowing for the lack of new investment I would argue that this management team has significantly and substantially underperformed vis a vis the previous team.
The previous management team endowed the new owners with a squad that had sufficient quality to allow player sales to generate proceeds that would fund a not insignificant transfer budget.
However, the vast majority of the significant trades made, Silva, Hoever, Hwang, Trincao and Semedo (albeit he is a good player but not at the fee and wages paid!) were all bad deals.
They have also, despite the noise and seeming emphasis and excellent performances pre-Seville on the field, totally failed -as per the latest accounts - to develop commercial revenues.
The argument that they brought us promotion, Europe etc etc is fallacious as that was achieved pre-Seville by the previous management team.
And the other widely promoted argument that as we came 10th and 13th - a great performances vis a vis the previous 20+ years - post Seville the current management team are great is specious in that until this year 9 of the starting 11 - all bar Sa and Semedo in fact - were at the club pre-Seville so naturally we were - and in fact still are - a strong side.
So, in conclusion in my view there are 2 answers to 2 separate issues and whilst many people conflate the 2 issues it is clear to me that pre-Seville Fosun were a great owner but post Seville they have been awful!
The arguement is put forward of be careful what you wish for using various "bad" owners frm both Wolves past and other clubs as a salutary warning to those wishing Fosun gone as if one's options were only an awful owner in Fosun or an even worse one such as those quoted. As stated above virtually every prem owner even Ashley invests and with backing from an owner willing and capable of investing post Seville where would Nuno et al have taken us?
Would we have made Champions league football - maybe and maybe not but would we have suffered from such a clear inflexion point - I don't think so?
Bookies who despite the views of some posters actually are experts - see their accounts - used to view us as Europa Challengers now the bookies I have seen have us pegged at 13th at best and some have us lower at 14th, 16th, 17th and even 18th.
Thoughts?

Agree0 Disagree0

29 Jul 2022 06:44:34
TFG
I've been burying my head in the sand for a while now regarding Fosun and hoping they have a plan. It's clear that they don't. The current striker situation is farcical. You mention the Saville match, which was of course the turning point for Nuno. He knew then we were light years behind Saville and recognised the need for formation change and investment in players that could facilitate that change. Those investments were never made, at least not to Nunos liking, and that spelt the end for him. Bruno Lage has stated many times since his arrival that he needs 4 or 5 players. He knows now that one or two players per window is all he can hope for and not necessarily the players he wants.
As much as I like Fabio Silva, you have to question why we paid 35mil for him when that money could have been better spent elsewhere. Also hwang, 13 mil? And yet we let Vithina go. So it seems that even when we spend money, the decision making is awful at times. The need for a striker, now in it's 3rd year. I do hope we can get a bit more quality in over the next couple of weeks. We certainly need it, but it's just hit and miss with us at the moment, although I think we've done well with Nathan Collins. Too little, too late?

29 Jul 2022 07:14:30
And sorry what I wanted to finally say was that Fosun must realise that they are custodians of Wolverhampton wanderers not 'owners'. Wolverhampton wanderers are OUR club and always will be, even if the they take 'wolves' to London, new York, Beijing, Santiago whenever.

29 Jul 2022 07:20:48
Morning Thefutureisoldgold,
A thoughtful review on our status.
Your comment.
"For me the owner in reality only has 2 key roles. Firstly, have a good management team and secondly give them the tools/cash to do the job."
I see it slightly differently, where you say "Owner", I would say "Local Management"
Fosun bought us 6 years ago and for me, delivered on all their early promises.
They brought in football specialists, Gestifute, who worked well with Thelwell and created a strong Premiership Squad.
Sadly once we lost Thelwell and he was replaced by Shi, it has all gone backwards.
Shi has appointed a VERY weak senior management team, particularly the Football Director and we are struggling.
Fosun run all their businesses the same way, they are all their own Profit Centres. Same as most global companies, so no surprise there.
Sadly the guy in charge of Wolves is incapable of raising funds (marketing is a joke). The early stated strategy was "we will secure investment via strong Partnerships, failed.
Using players to create funds, another failure. Players transferred don't generate enough to fund new signings.
2 examples of poor transfer dealings, he paid £35m for Silva, Traore will go for significantly less than the £18m we paid.
So yes, limited funds, but that is self-created by Shi.
Our Club will be a failure if Fosun don't quickly replace Shi.
ps
Look at the Everton site. A great article from Prof Denise Barrett-Baxendale, MBE, Chief Executive Officer of Everton Football Club.
Chalk and Cheese from our senior management.

29 Jul 2022 07:23:18
My previous post must be in the ether.

29 Jul 2022 07:37:32
Concisely my earlier lost post really centered on fosun using the 'wolves' name for international promotion and as owners never having to kick a ball. At first with nuno they had the project and recruited wisely to ensure that aim. Since then a lot of outside distractions have occurred but we've stood back from investing on nunos success, we've taken imo substandard sponsorship. The molineux development is in limbo. Fosun have us literally in flashing lights but it seems they want to do it with dated old reliable bulbs and no investment for stock. Fosun will never be forgotten for what they've done, only history will tell us how good they really are.

29 Jul 2022 09:09:47
Fosun markets Wolves brand through Fosun Sports. I guess the income from those activities would appears in Fosun Sports accounts together with the £60m they got from the sales of 20% of Fosun Sports to Peak6. Which presumably means Peak6 own 20% of Wolves.
The numbers are not verifiable but close.

29 Jul 2022 09:34:44
Tfiog, I think to ask if Fosun are a good or bad owner is the wrong question. Surely the question is are they the right kind of owner. Fosuns business is not football its about developing profitable business through investment and facilitating growth. Their business model does not allow for a continuous stream of £M's to be poured into the money sponge that is Premier League Football.
Having said that Fosun did put £M's into the club initially and sent us on an upward trajectory rocketing into the Prem and straight into Europe, the problem being that was never going to be sustainable from an investment in the club perspective given their business model. I think they did, however, fail to realise how long it takes to build a fan base across the world and therefore significant revenue streams even in their own country. To be Chinese owned is not enough as it takes success on the pitch and that costs money, a lot of it. That pushed the 10 year project back to 20 years, it was a reality check. Without money pouring out of the ground and the Chinese Government's decree to curtail spending in the Prem as amounts involved even concerned the second largest economy on the planet.
I do believe Fosuns intentions and aspirations are honourable, so are they good owners, yes, of course they are. Can they or more importantly do they even want to supply that continuous stream of massive funding that success in the Premier League football requires, probably not.
There is no doubt in my mind that in Shi, Dalrymple, and Nuno were our dream team and their demise was the beginning of a period of relative stagnation for the club. The question is why did they leave, Dalrymple was pretty much marched out of the door only to take a top job in Rugby Union. Thelwell left to take up an opportunity of a lifetime in the US, only to return just two years later working for a club that have underwhelmed their own fans recently. Probably both knew that the money was about to dry up and didn't want the hassle, both cases being covered by non disclosure agreements I'm sure.
Nuno was different, It was acceptable in football to blame the manager for the relative lack of success on the pitch as he struggled to change things without the significant funds required so the term 'by mutual agreement' came into play.
For me the current top table is the concern and I have stated as much previously. Those Ask Wolves sessions started alarm bells ringing in my head as there didn't seem to be the football knowledge or personality to attract the right players. That was confirmed when they congratulated themselves for getting £46M for Jota only for our subsequent goal scoring ability to fall off a cliff. Compound that by paying £36M for Silva, not his fault, a talented kid still to develop I'm sure, but £36M for an 18 year old unproven at this level! I think the finances have resulted in Shi assembling a, let's say, more compliant group around him that are either not up to the job, lack the funding to even try to make a success of it, or both.
So the question are they bad owners because we haven't finished in the top six and regularly compete in Europe burning up money in the process, or good owners because we are now an established upper Premier League team that has given the town its sense of pride in its club again.
I'm sure we will all have our own opinion on that but do they need to reset their commitment to the club, develop the ground, build that hotel, these are solid investments that will only add to the clubs fixed assets and value.
The single most important thing they need to do as part of that process is replace the top table with football people and commercial high flyers and commit to a period of regular investment, but in a controlled manner. It's not about how much you spend but more about how you spend it and to me Wolves aren't doing that under this management, the focus has diluted over too many initiatives, record labels, womens fashion, etc. Whose money is that Fosuns or the Clubs, how well has that money been spent, what are the returns, do we even know?
So for me do we need new owners, not necessarily, but they need to decide if they should be doing this, can they afford it, probably? However, we do we need a change of senior management a refocus on the football and a steady but manageable financial input by Fosun wisely spent by people who know what they're doing.

{Ed001's Note - the Chinese govt did not change their mind due to the amount of money involved at all. That was of no concern to them whatsoever. No idea where that has come from. They simply changed their policy of openness to the west and trying to sportswash their country as Qatar are doing and the Saudis. Instead they decided to return to their more insular policies that applied previously. That is why the Chinese Super League stopped bringing in the big star names as well.}

29 Jul 2022 10:03:03
What makes a good owner from who's point of view is the real question tfig. From the investor? The customer? The employee? Outside providers? The media?.
If we use commercial bases when there is a reliance upon the product to make the money we've got Competitive costs, accessible locations, customer satisfaction, workforce satisfaction, investor satisfaction (not necessarily in those order). Of course fosuns product isn't actually on the pitch kicking a ball.

They are merely tools to promote Fosuns name and investment around Europe and the globe, particularly in the Americas it would seem. 'Wolves' not Wolverhampton is the brand, (and indeed that's abit of the reason why I'm a wolves fan.) Molineux is obviously accessible to most fans (pricing and development another debate but relevant in these time nonetheless). In nuno and our rise to the heights we had a happy 'band of brothers' with a project spelt out under a decent manager and staff. We attracted the media the big sponsors and new fans. The wolves were global bound. What as happened since as been immense in a growth sense. No doubt CV put a huge dent in things. Nunos departure under a cloud (he loved everything about the city and club) distanced fosun from us and they appeared to prefer it that way.

Molineuxs development again is in the air (understandably) we've got (imo) a substandard castore shirt design that doesn't compete with adidas as a recognised brand, (I know the proffered finance/imitation rip off arguments) Aeropay from what little I know seem a quick shoe in as sponsor. The administration now seems slow in dealing with membership allocations and product despatch (yes I know the global issues etc) add to that the brand promotion and we're back to fosun not kicking the ball on the pitch so to speak.

They've relied mainly on the same 'names' not invested in the quality to substantiate the 'top 6 dream consistently (a missed opportunity after nunos efforts) and ultimately losing customer confidence in the cause.
What fosun did was incredible and will never be forgotten, but good owners? Well I think only history will decide, rant off the top of me head over. COYW.

29 Jul 2022 10:33:40
Looking at the bigger global picture (and maybe I'm reading to much into events here) the world is clearly moving into a very dangerous phase. So far China has sat on the fence as Russia attempts gains in Ukraine. North Korea making nuclear threats again yesterday. The Chinese Government with its eyes on Taiwan looks as if it's waiting to see how events unfold. If they are serious about an invasion of Taiwan then surely if they have any sense (which they do appear to have) they will be looking at protecting assets abroad from Western sanctions. Now although WWFC is a small and irrelevant part of their foreign investments making the club self funding would go a considerable way to protect that investment. In short I can't see any more money from China although I agree that initially Fosun were good owners, they did make poor decisions after Seville I'm not saying I want them out but am wary about how future events may impact on the club.

PS Hope this doesn't come over as paranoia.

29 Jul 2022 11:46:31
future what a good thread you have initiated, should go on for a while this one and deservedly so. It's good so far to be getting decent well thought replies and not be accused of be being negative and disloyal. The worry to me is the lack of direction in which we are heading. They are clearly by sending so many players out on loan including Silva, I wonder how much saving in cost this will add up to and for what purpose is to be made by it? Simply to save money? To use for new players either purchase or loan?
It would be nice to have some idea of what plans if any they have. Since the purchase of Semedo and Silva Jeff Shi has become more and more withdrawn from making any comments which I find quite sad. It used to be more open I thought!
Thoughts?

29 Jul 2022 11:49:48
Ed001 that's true, but they made those decisions to curtail irrational spending both at home and abroad that yielded little benefit to their home game and international standing. It's always about the money.

29 Jul 2022 14:38:23
I think a lot of this comes down to communication, supporters from every club invest considerable time and money to support their team in whatever manner they choose, and in return they expect to know what is happening, what direction it is going which generates discussions like these. At the moment that is considerably lacking, if we all knew a bit more, to be informed by the club, even a statement of sorts, we may not like what we are told but at least we would know and then adjust our concerns, thoughts, criticisms etc accordingly.
I don't know if that's how things are done in China, those at the top keeping those at the bottom in the dark, only giving out information when they want?

29 Jul 2022 18:09:42
Guys - really good to get such an active thread and with such thoughtful and diverse responses.

It seems that many think it is Shi's (but not Fosun's (?)) fault that we haven't succesfully exploited the opportunity that awaited us in the summer of Seville, but if he only communicated more/better then maybe he might be cut some slack?

Everyone knows my view of Shi but I am less willing to absolve Fosun of blame. They knew Shi had zero experience and therefore should have known that it was a risk appointing him. However more pertinently they should have rapidly realised and certainly by now must know (or their advisors should at least - they must have them as football is way outside of the their usual field of expertise) that this risk has blown up in their faces. For me Long as you say this is the key issue for Fosun "buiding the business to give a good return on their investment". Clearly Shi's change of strategy/management team post Seville has lost them a huge amount of money, far in excess of the modest profits made - post Seville.

If they had sold in the summer of Seville I postulate that they could have multiplied their investment several times over - maybe selling for £400m+. If the business had taken different decsions - not spent more money but simply spent it better - that summer or Jimenez had scored the penalty and we had thus continued our upward trajectory then that valuation may well have been substantially exceeed by now.

However today I am sceptical that they would get their money back and if the worst happened this year - not likely but possible - then they will have huge problem on their hand and will be massively underwater.

Whilst many quote our modest profits as evidence that Shi is doing a good job for Fosun I would expect a sophesticated investor to understand that focusing entirely on the P and L and ignoring the other 2 accounts - cashflow and B/S is very foolish. Whilst we have made modest profits our cashflow is now very very tight and we are having to borrow at concerningly high rates from an Aussie investment bank to keep afloat and the value of the business - probably seen only as an off balance sheet item or maybe an intangible asset - has been massively reduced - by more than a couple of hundred million?

I know Fosun are busy but that is a substantial number even for the company we thought they were but given their current issues fiddling as Shi burnt Rome was a monumental error.

Sorry for this rant but at my age (and with the current structure of the game which is weighted so heavily in retaining the status quo ie supporting the current big 6) it is likely that this was the one and only chance I will have had to see Wolves break through - Leicester is the exception that proves the rule but just maybe with a tiny bit more ambition and a fair bit more quality/experience in the management team we could possibly have broken the rulebook!

29 Jul 2022 20:59:20
I fully understand why Fosun want Shi to have a key role at the club. He will be privy to what the owners real intentions are. However I do think we need to appoint an experienced Director of Football, who will work with Mendes, when it is beneficial to do so, but will also be aware of the opportunities that exist in other than the Portuguese market.
Don’t want to be over critical, as there is still a month to go before the window closes. Looks as though our South American scouting has identified some possibilities. However, none have materialised into purchases this window and I suppose that is down to Shi, Sellars and Bruno agreeing on which prospects to pursue. I don’t see the decision being invested in Sellars, although other clubs do give their Director of Football that final decision making responsibility. I think we may even have lost out on some purchases because we have failed to act quickly enough. Not sure that Sellars has the required experience to be given that degree of responsibility!

30 Jul 2022 09:51:20
For me no issue with Shi or Fosun but I think the situation was derailed to some degree by COVID affecting already tight cash flow and margins more than some realise. I do however believe that the Chinese rushed into European football in general. The Chinese government believed that close contact with western football would improve their home teams hence international standing within the game. They spent huge sums of money only to receive small returns on their investments and and no real improvement to their own game. In 2017 there were 20 Chinese owned clubs in Europe, now there are 10, those being owned by the specific group that want to stay involved in Europe, like Fosun.
Will Fosun sell Wolves? doubt it, will they stand by and watch Wolves get relegated? no chance. Will they be happy for Wolves to rumble on in the upper half of the table inn the hope that we breach the top 6 one day, yes probably. So I would suggest we can expect a hoop and a stick approach with Fosun only stepping in occasionally to keep the hoop rolling in the right direction. A bit like they did by removing the £100M debt.





 

 

 
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