28 Nov 2024 15:36:34
Isn't it funny that when Wolves were playing badly, all the blame was aimed at Jeff Shi and how he appointed a novice manager but now we are 4 games unbeaten, all the praise goes to Matt Hobbs on identifying GON but nothing for Shi who appointed Hobbs in the first place.

1.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 17:47:01
Works both ways though doesn't it Wandering, cause you were regularly calling for GON to be sacked. Can't remember you ever suggesting to sack the guys that had JUST given him a 4 year contract did you?! ?

2.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 17:49:41
Thinking about it in fact your statement simply is not true! Almost everyone on this page was blaming GON! For every one post calling for Shi to be sacked I can show you ten calling for GON to be sacked, half I'd which were yours! Just saying ?

3.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 18:09:55
Again you've missed the point. This isn't about GON, it is about the changing perception of Shi.

4.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 18:19:56
I stand by what I said about GON. But what you seem to have forgotten is that I also said although I thought he'd taken us as far as he could, I hoped he could prove the vast majority of the fans wrong, which fair play to him, he is starting to do and if he did, I'd happily admit I was wrong.

But then again, all you've done is slate Fosun recently and accused them of mismanaging the club. You've even backed up TFIOG with his assessment of the club's finances even though you've done no research.

5.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 18:23:00
And again you've missed the point. People will always choose to blame whoever fits their greater narrative, which is precisely what you've done for the last month. Seems odd to now blame other people for doing the EXACT same thing from the other side of the fence! ?

6.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 18:26:09
Oh I've done plenty of research cheers Wandering. It's just like Future I see very little point in debating it with someone that has consistently shown that they don't have a basic grasp of how profit and loss accounts affect overall balance sheets is all ?

7.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 18:49:21
So tell me then why Wolves have posted a loss of £64m NOT £107m oh wise one.

8.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 18:51:27
Let's just agree to disagree, time will tell won't it. Because if you are indeed correct we can look forward to going from strength to strength in the transfer market, something we have not done since Nuno left. Let's hope your right and the money is just waiting to be spent, considering we were outbid by Ipswich in the last window I won't hold my breath mind!

9.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 19:26:50
As you once said Bullysboy, a simple search of Google will give you the answers. Try it yourself and look at the figures. I mean surely the club wouldn't announce such a massive discrepancy.

10.) 28 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 21:27:04
OK Wandering last chance to make you happy.
Firstly you don't have to worry about Wolves's returns to HMRC. They are the figures I have pointed out to you. You have correctly copied them off of the internet just misunderstood them.
Secondly You state they made an operating loss of £97m, paid interest of £10.4m (net) and made a profit on player sales of £43m to give a pre tax loss of £64m.
This is completely CORRECT!
Now pre, (that means before!), player sales, they made an operating loss of £97m and paid interest of £10.4m.
Add those two figures together and you get a pre player sales loss of over £107m.
Is that clear?
Why did I mention pre player sales profits?
I have explained this several times already but in case you don't recall it was because I was commenting on our underlying on going business i.e. things that are likely/predicted to happen again next year.
We obviously can't sell Neto and Kilman next year and we have no control over the market for our other players, (to illustrate this I referenced our very own debate on this site re RAN - one of the players considered likely to be sold).
So for stability you need to be able to see/control your future finances.
ps Brighton the poster boys for making profits from player sales made a profit in 2023 of £10m before player sales i.e. they didn't NEED to sell anyone but chose to do so and spectacularly well making £121m meaning they had a pre tax profit of £131m
Finally re RAN in cash terms if we sell for £30m we will pay the option of £9.5m and keep £20.5m. We do not have to pay the £10m purchase price you mention as that was paid when we bought him in the summer of 2021.
In profit terms if we sell him for £30m this coming summer i, e. 4 years after he signed a 5 year contract he will be in the book at £2m - after amortisation - and we make a £28m profit.
The option however makes this more complicated but at £30m we will undoubtedly pay the option of £9.5 and thus merely make £18.5m.
Cash and profits on sales are different numbers - unless it is a homegrown player or a player whose first contract has expired.
Is that clear?
Eastmids can you please peruse the figures above and from Companies house and reassure Wandering that neither Wolves or I are telling people fibs!

11.) 29 Nov 2024
28 Nov 2024 23:47:01
Thank you Future buddy, as always that was FAR more succinct than I could manage! Funny thing is Wandering (ironically) I get the impression that you think I'm just sticking up for my chum (and yes I do see Future as a chum on here) but you miss the fundamental reason I say you can trust him. Put simply buddy, I was in your exact same position about 3/4 years ago! Historically, myself and Future have had some enjoyable back and forths (many times:) and what I quickly came to realise is that the guy knows his numbers! Far better than I do I might add, but it's also worth noting here that during those debates I (politely, without name calling like 'wise one') asked him to explain it to me. And much like above (when asked politely) he did so incredibly well! What he pointed out to me was that despite my desperation to argue that Jeff was doing a good job, that quite frankly he wasn't! The point that Future is making to you (and to me years before) is that that the ONLY way this club grows enough to keeps it's best players (and therefore TRULY grow as a squad) is by increasing its revenue streams beyond player sales!
Like I say I started this debate with Future before Covid and to date nothing has really changed! We are sill relying on player sales to prop up the balance sheet and until that changes we are NEVER going to really grow as a club!
I (genuinely:) understand why you get/feel frustrated cause I've been through the same realisation buddy! Future helped explain it to me (very well I might add) and in doing so he helped me see the reality that until we are run like a PROPER (profitable) club (please see Brighton) then we aren't going to progress! This is why I trust Futures take on such things, cause he has been (very kindly:) educating me on it for years now! And FYI turns out he was right all along and we were/are wrong!
I don't blame Jeff personally, he's just a mounth piece. Sadly though it has become pretty clear that to Fosun we are just a relatively small and now redundant part of their portfolio. As long as we aren't costing um much they don't care and as long as that's the case (as Jeff has pretty much said himself) mid table mediocrity is about the best us Wolves fans can hope for! Sad but true! Like yourself, for me it was kind of a blue pill/red pill scenario!
The REAL question is though Wandering is that as a Wolves fan are you happy to have mid table as our best case scenario?! Nuno wasn't, niether was Lope which is why they are gone! And according to Jeff as a fan if you want more than that we can go to! Is that what we want for our club?!

12.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 06:14:15
TFIOG, o have looked at the full figures where as you clearly haven't. Why have you added the £10.7m interest just to the £97m pre tax losses?

20% of £97m is nearer £20m.

The £10.7m interest is 20% of the £53m loss.

But you must be right but please confirm how Wolves got to the -£64m figure.

Yesterday you said the £107m was made up of the £64 loss + the £43m profit but today you've used different figures. Make up your mind.

And Bullysboy, thanks for confirming that you blindly follow anyone who suits your agenda without doing any research yourself.

I hope you've both reported the club to the Tax Man.

13.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 06:52:06
I don't understand why your transfixed on the £107m loss only. Surely you have to add any profit to any accounts.

14.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 07:11:26
I agree Bullysboy in that I am not happy for mid table mediocrity and I understand why Lopetegui moved on but in relation to Nuno, there were a number of other factors such as the pandemic changing the shape of our financial picture due to vastly reduced income. But more importantly were 2 other factors. 1: Nuno not being able to travel home to see his family which he himself stated affected his mental health and 2: The injury to Raul which affected the entire squad. The transfer/finances added to his frustrations.

15.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 09:54:03
Future, yes your figures are absolutely correct both on profits and RAN.

Wandering, you clearly have no idea on accounts. I think you are confusing (or at least I hope it's confusion, or you'd best never take out a loan) interest with tax. Only the credit cards land pay day loans would attract anything like 20% and it wouldn't be attached to any profit figures only loans taken out for whatever reason.

16.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 13:45:51
This is what Wolves posted on 2nd March 2024 to the website which is the same as the paperwork submitted to Companies House:


Wolves have released headline financial information for the year ending 31st May 2023, confirming a net loss of £67.2m.

The accounts reflect the 2022/23 season, which was the seventh under the ownership of Fosun and the fifth consecutive season in the Premier League.

In terms of results on the pitch, the men’s first-team experienced a more challenging campaign compared with previous years and, after a mid-season change in management, finished with a total of 41 points in 13th position.

Revenue for the year reached £168.6m (£165.5m in 2022). This can be attributed to an increase in Premier League broadcasting rights offsetting the impact of lower metrics of both merit payment in 2022/23 (13th placed finish rather than 10th) and live TV facility fee broadcasting revenue streams (Wolves matches were broadcast 12 times on UK television compared to 16 times in 2021/22).

Furthermore, the season also saw a higher number of home games due to the club’s Carabao Cup campaign, which saw the team play three matches at Molineux, increasing matchday driven revenue streams such as ticketing and matchday hospitality, before exiting in the quarter-finals.

All matches in the year were played in front of close to capacity crowds, with an average attendance of 31, 346 (30, 725 in 2021/22).

Player trading in the year generated profit of £43.9m (£50.1m loss in 2022) through disposal of players’ registrations, driven by the sales of Morgan Gibbs-White, Willy Boly, Leander Dendoncker, Ruben Vinagre, Connor Ronan, Leo Campana, Sangbin Jeong and crystalising contingent fees for Diogo Jota, Rafa Mir and Rui Patricio.

However, this was outweighed by higher amortisation and impairment charges on player registrations, totalling £82.4m, driven by further investments in the first team and Academy, including the acquisitions of Nathan Collins, Hwang Hee-Chan, Matheus Nunes, Goncalo Guedes, Sasa Kalajdzic, Diego Costa, Matheus Cunha, Mario Lemina, Craig Dawson, Pablo Sarabia, Dan Bentley and Joao Gomes. This results in a net player trading loss of £38.6m.

Operating costs also increased in this period, in part due to the departure of head coach Bruno Lage and his support staff in October 2022, and the appointment of Julen Lopetegui in November 2022, and also due to increases in player payroll as part of investment in the first team.

Overall, the financial loss for the year, after interest and tax, was £67.2m (loss of £46.1m in 2022).

17.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 13:46:25
Interesting debate gents, but in truth I feel it may just all be numerical semantics.

We are fans of a club whose owners currently have just one ambition, survive in the Premier League as cheaply as possible and they've put that on Jeff Shi to make it happen. Now that might not be forever under Fosun, but it is for the foreseeable future as they struggle to rebuild their financial credibility.

As Bullys commented mid table mediocrity would be perfect for them and the club as even an excursion into Europe right now would be an issue. The fans would demand that we maintain/improve on that progress but they won't or probably can't pay for that right now. The club left relatively unsupported financially would certainly struggle.

The reasons for this have been much debated but without a hike in other incomes, there's only player sales left as a way of raising cash, so don't bother having player names printed on your shirts would be my advice.

18.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 15:29:52
So regarding RAN, we paid £10m, there's a £9.5m option and we sell hom for £30m.
How do we make £20.5m?

19.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 17:08:40
I've asked the same thing but apparently, according to TFIOG, Bullysboy and Eastmidswolf it's all about amortisation. Maybe they can enlighten you too.

20.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 18:01:50
No point enlightening you Wandering, each of us have tried and all we've got is a mouthful telling us that you know better despite ALL the evidence to the contrary! Can't be bothered to debate with someone that doesn't seem grown up enough to debate to be honest! You've taken not a word a single person has said on board, it's the equivalent of a toddler standing in the corner shouting the wrong answer over a teacher! It's boring and not what I come on these pages for! ?

21.) 29 Nov 2024
29 Nov 2024 19:39:57
Just answer the question then Bullysboy.

Why have Wolves posted them figures.

And please enlighten me how we stand to make the £20m+ profit on AIT.

No point dismissing what I'm saying. All I've been told by 3 of you on here is that I've misread the statement.

22.) 30 Nov 2024
30 Nov 2024 15:10:15
Hi Everyone

I read with interest and some not little amusement the recent comments about Wolves 2022/2023 accounts.

I have posted this extract from the audited accounts at Companies House before but do it again so that the figures are readily viewable.

Turnover 169
Operating costs excluding player amortisation
and profit on sale figures -184

Operating loss -15

Loss on player trading -39

loss before interest -54

Interest -10

Loss for the year -64

The loss on player trading is made up as follows

Amortisation of fees -82

Profit on sale of player registrations 43

As Above -39

So different posters have combined the above figures in different ways eg

The future is gold added all the figures except profit on sale to arrive at a loss of 107 million this is accurate but in my view totally selective if not misleading.
If I combine all of the figures except the amortisation of fees we arrive at a profit if 18 million this is equally selective and even more misleading.
In the audited accounts the figure of loss on player amortisation less profit on player sales is shown in a totally different column to the other operating costs. Clearly the people who prepared the accounts and audited the accounts intended the figures should be viewed together not separated as in the 2 examples above.
if we look at the profit and loss account any competent accountant would tell you the stand out figure is the amortisation figure of 82 million, in essence Wolves for several years bought players badly I am sure you can all think of players whose amortisation of fees is included in the above but have made little or no positive contribution to the club.
Many on here have commented forget the player transfer problems the solution lies in increasing other forms of income. Wolves have a stadium the capacity of which is the fourteenth highest in the premier league. So 13 clubs have higher gate receipts probably more shirt sales more sales of matchday refreshments and arguably are more attractive to sponsors. So looking from a a commercial clout perspective Wolves in the long term are likely to be a club whose average position is in the bottom half of the premier league. This may not be what we all want but it may well be the reality.



Just to conclude others have made comments about the suitability or otherwise of posters to comment about Wolves accounts. I am happy to share that prior to my retirement I was a chartered accountant for 50 years so a know a little bit about preparing, auditing and presenting accounts


We may disagree about interpretation of matters on here but I am sure we just wish the best for Wolves and hope we are still in the premier league next season.That for me at least will be a success from where we are now.

Wolves 1960

23.) 30 Nov 2024
30 Nov 2024 16:36:06
Thank you 1960!
I always made clear it was pre player sales figure.
I accept that this is a distinctive way of looking at the accounts, but my point, in answer to a comment on"stability", was that the amortisation of £82m sadly is now part of our on going underlying business, is predictable and repeatable (albeit it will be different number next year as some players will have amortised to zero and of course we have no visibility on player purchases/sales), therefore we can not ignore it.
However player sales are one offs, unpredictable and to a very large extent out of the control of the club - i.e. how much will we get for RAN if we choose to sell him - see thread.
Thus in any debate on "stability" my view, backed by the "canon" of Prudency, is that it is dangerous to include something you have little control over or visibility of.
I assume you can also explain why the cash received in the accounting period that we sell RAN for the putative £30m is not the same as the profit and that in neither cash terms or profit terms will the £10m paid 4 years ago be included in the calculation. I gather RAN signed a 5 year contract and thus will be amortised to £2m by the time he is "sold" in the summer of 2025?
Many thanks once again to you, (and Eastmids who I gather is also an accountant) for your contributions.

24.) 30 Nov 2024
30 Nov 2024 19:09:52
For the future is gold

To calculate the profit on sale of RAN obviously requires assumptions.
So I have made the following assumptions
Sale is in summer of 2025 for £30 miiion
Fee to buy out sell on clause is £9.5 million
Unamortised part of original transfer fee is £2 million

Wolves will receive £30 million but pay out £9.5 million leaving net proceeds of £20.5 million.
Deduct the unamortised balance of £2 million results in a profit of £18.5 million.

Obviously the result depends on the assumptions made if only our new Chancellor understood that. Sorry totally irrelevant but often her figures do not seem to make sense.

Hope that is helpful.

Wolves1960